December 27th, I had the chance to live out a personal and
professional dream of mine when I got to interview rapper legend Jean Grae.
Besides from being an extremely genuine and nice person (sorry, does that ruin
Style Wars for you?), I can also confirm her work from the “Cookies or Comas”
mixtape: she’s funny as shit, and yes, does use the word “fuckery” in every day
conversation. However, it was a dream not to be able to express my
appreciation, but also being able to ask her the questions that I always wonder
about when I approach rap music as a craft: how much of her work is
inspiration, and how much comes from actively working on it? What idea comes
first: words or rhythm? What do they know of music theory? Hopefully the
interview below helps dispel some misconceptions around rap music being a “poor
man’s music”, so to speak, because “anyone can rap”, but also it hopes give a
window into something that we all, as rap fans, get too little information on:
how a rap takes its final form on the record. Thus, my mission was to trace the
development of the musical idea from its first conception, through to its
editing in the studio, to its final manifestation on the CD. Thus, this
interview touches on a little bit of everything. Rather than offer my analysis
here, I want to present the interview in as raw a form as possible, and let you
make of it for now what you will.
inspiration, and how much of what you come up with initially do you have to
shape and work on further?
one piece that ever took longer than an hour. I work best completely under
pressure. The one song that didn’t work like that was ”you and me and everyone
we know.” I try to write beforehand, but it just doesn’t work. I write usually
directly before I record, and that’s it. I record a lot of stuff at home in my
studio, or if we set a studio date…but yeah, I don’t have a really big process
beforehand. My process beforehand is more I need to have a bunch of experiences
in life. I never do first draft, second draft. I self-edit as I go along. I
write really fast.
technically complicated and accomplished rappers, find each other, and come to have
such close personal as well as professional relationships?
Mos it was just generally New York. We just kind of knew each other, and it was
the same time and era, and we just never stopped being friends…outside of all
of the rapping, you’re friends first. Pharoahe I met years ago and I guess we
really started to be friends a couple years when I started working with some
partnerships with him, and when we started hanging out, we were like, “Oh shit,
I know who you are!” I call it finding the other mutants – “Oh man, I know
exactly how you think!” But in a good way. But people who see me writing and
creatively generally come the same way…so that’s how I look at it. We do hang a
lot, but mostly we are never coming up with amazing raps. When you write, and I
think as frequently as all of us write, all of that hanging out and experiences
is exactly what goes into the rhymes, not happenstance, not random – it’s your
experiences, what you heard, where you’ve just been. It’s absolutely all in
really different, but technically we focus on the same thing. I think we
approach it in different ways, we’re really meticulous about using rhythms and
patterns and words…I’m more word focused, and I think he’s more kind of
rhythmically focused, just phrasing-wise, there’s shit I don’t think I could
come up with.
just write as it comes along?
whether or not I’m sitting there writing music? Hahaha…sometimes it happens,
but usually not. Something I wouldn’t
have done before, I set aside time: “These are my hours when I’ll focus on this
project or this project.” I can do a lot of organizing beforehand, but the
writing seems like the smallest part to me. Sitting down and saying everything
about the album is one thing…but it never happens until it’s the last second
and I have to hand it in. My brain doesn’t get that spark until I’m under the
different. I don’t separate the rhythm from the actual word. The word is
exactly what is creating the timing…I guess I look at them as beats and notes
in themselves. So I’m very conscious of what sort of patterns feel right…and
you know it’s the best rhyme when you’re fucking the beat. You’re not
competing, you’re not lying somewhere there, you’re getting in there, finding
all the spaces where you’re supposed to be. It’s choosing the right words…the
first idea, the one I always have and that takes the most time, is the opening
line. And it all grows from there…there are people who are absolute masters at
writing opening lines, that’s what you want, that’s how you know a song, that’s
how it goes…Prodigy [from Mobb Deep]. Might be my favorite. There are so many
fucking great ones…and when you find it, it’s absolutely an introduction for
people who have never heard you before, it sets the tone for the song – it does
so much, it’s a first impression. It happens really quickly – you can decide
how many bars it will take – 1 bar, 4 bars, 8 bars – and once that goes,
everything else finds its place.
the rhythm. It suggests an emotion, whether you’re using triplets or whatever
it is, I think certain patterns and certain syllables convey emotions, and
that’s really my goal at the end of it. It’s not only using the right word,
it’s selecting a word and usually one I haven’t used, words that draw emotions
out of people. Words that are relatable are the most important things.
syllables are great. Words that feel good in your mouth! There’s a saying that,
when we find one word that rhymes or a statement that rhymes, I know this is
true for my friends and I, you can’t stop coming up with more words – we’ll
just keep texting each other back and forth. I remember, talking to Pharoahe,
finding out that we both have the same favorite word: it’s amalgamate, or
amalgamation, is just an amazing word. I don’t write those kind of words down,
but I’ll save them somewhere.
making a hammer, where you start with a blueprint of a hammer and then put all
the parts together until you have one? Or is it like legos, where you start
with blocks, just start putting them together, and see where you end up?
visually see a whole puzzle, I’m not great at word searches. What I can do take
the word search and make it something new. I work backwards, I work from the
future. In my mind when I start with a song, I’m already at the video and
accepting awards for the video. I can see the song and the video, it’s all done
– what I have to do then is figure out how to go back and time and make the
song. It’s like taking a giant ceramic pile. This is already a whole thing, I
like this. I take the hammer, smash it, and then have to reconfigure it back
into a whole picture. I need to know the innerworkings of it. I absolutely work
backwards. When I start with an album, the album is already done. I know what I
want it to sound like, I know what I want it to feel like, I just have to go
figure out how to do it. I know what it looks like, I know how I want the
videos to look – absolutely everything. It’s working from the future.
answer, so I just want to hear whatever you have to say: Do you purposefully
structure sentences to fall across the bar line to create a better flow, but I
guess for you is the answer very case specific?
certain way. Whether it’s something like “Style Wars”, where it’s supposed to
feel a little threatening, and unhinged, and energetic– and even if it’s
something that’s the same tempo, you can’t go into “Love Thirst” threatening
and unhinged because that would be fucking weird! Yeah, there are secrets that
the general consumer doesn’t understand, that rhythms and chords all make you
feel a certain way, words too. Even pop songs – hits are hits. These songs make
you feel a certain way. I absolutely have finally come to understand that in
music – I can play around as much as I want. There are songs I can go back to and
listen to as an adult. Like, I heard Katy Perry’s “Fireworks” for the first
time the other day, and this is kind of how I know people who appreciate music,
like oh, you get it, and that song is fucking brilliant! Like fucking
fireworks, are you kidding me? There’s a really deep technicality to making
those kinds of songs so I think it’s going into that world understanding it,
and when people are like, “This is underground, that is underground,” I’m like,
well, a lot of people don’t actually know what they’re writing. If there’s a
song I want to be an underground song, I know exactly how to write that. I’m
not trying to sell it or license it. But if I want it to be in a specific kind
of movie or TV show, then I’m going to include those words, those emotions,
learned music theory, both harmonic and rhythmic. Can you read music?
was much younger, from my parents and I took a gang of piano lessons. I have my
dad’s piano now since my parents moved, which is great, I was like, “I really
need to go back in and play,” I play somewhat and play it by ear, and I just
started going back into reading sheet music again. But it’s been a long time. I
stopped doing formal training when I was younger, and really used to like going
to places, like Carl Fisher, and picking up sheet music and learning how to play
stuff. I love musicals, “Annie” for instance, I would get those books and
really, really learn how to play those songs. I think there’s a certain amount
of technicality that’s great, but I think mine also just came a lot of genes.
It was just kind of innate feeling of knowing things, and then going into music
theory class and being like, “oh, that’s what that’s called! I totally know how
to do that!” They just gave it a name. That’s kind of how I’ve approached most
of myself when I go to learn, I’m like I have ADHD, and this is a lot of money,
thank you for telling me these 3 things I needed to know, now I’m going to go
Guardia. At that time the big rappers were Kane, Rakim, and KRS-One, all
technically accomplished rappers that moved things forward and influenced a lot
of the trends today, such as Rakim’s internal rhyming. Did you hear them?
loved his “aggressiveness” – not necessarily that he would rap fast, but that
his delivery was so forceful. Some others would be people like Cool Keith – he
wasn’t even trying to rhyme!
anymore, but when I do, it’s usually in slashes, for instance for a double beat
it gets a double slash, but I also tend to space them on the page. I have to be
super neat about it. Computers have been great for me because I write so much
more and it looks like so much less and when you go back in, you’re like oh
shit, that is not 16 bars, that’s 64 bars! So I need to relax. And because 64
ars on a note pad looks very very different.
you’ve never tried to rap, it is really difficult!
and it is fucking difficult…you do have to learn how to count bars, and for
some people, it’s just a term, saying “bars”… you know, like a hot 16. It’s
absolutely necessary, and some people won’t even recognize it that much.
voice, and a brain, and a microphone, and there’s this conception that rappers,
since they don’t go to a formal educational musical setting to learn to rap,
that rap is somewhat of “a poor man’s music”.
and again, I’d like to thank you. Not enough people recognize it.
write, but I don’t think you can teach people to rap.
so in my head. You know there’s times when I go back. Say when you’re going
back and doing the ad libs, and you’ve already got the verse down, it would be
easier to go in if you wrote it down and if you’re doubling something with pro
tools, a lot of people go in and do one ad lib, and they’re like let me throw
in another one on top of it. So it’s to go back in and say in bold, “These are
things I’m going to emphasize.” These words are the words that need emphasis,
or syllables…I probably focus more on nailing the ad libs. To me, it’s accents…the
words that you should be getting right. Usually it’s the first time I’m hearing
it, and if I did this right, then here is where I go in and figure out what
needs to be accented.
people, I was definitely doing poetry readings of my own written poetry for
audiences, back when I was 12 or 13. We probably should not have been allowed
in those clubs, but it was New York at that time and nobody cared. And I
thought that it works for me, and again, it was immediately pulling emotions
out of people. What words am I using to get to the emotions of people?
metrics and accents of iambic pentameter, or anything like that?
school, great English teachers, who actually focused on some of these things
and I was really, really lucky to have that and be able to translate it to
music, and be like, oh okay, this is the same thing. Good teachers who
understood that those things were important.
having in my early career been super monotone about things, that I was reliant
a lot on rhythms and accents but not necessarily doing it with my voice. Not on
purpose, I think I was generally young and literally had not found my voice. So
yeah, I think all of that forced me into it. It’s learning how to do stuff with
a blindfold on, and then when you’re good enough you take the blindfold off,
you’re like, “Oh shit! Well now I can fucking play around.” This would have
been around “Attack of the Attacking Things” [from 2002], and going back and
listening to it, it doesn’t sound young material-wise, but voice-wise, I can
hear it. I didn’t really know what to do. I was definitely playing around more
in the poetry world than the rap world. Really, really breaking rules and
rhythms in a real conversational tone, and definitely not as technical, even
just starting with the next album, “This Week” [from 2004].
delivery and technical side of things? I’m thinking of songs like “Style Wars” –
monotone, technical, as compared to the song “Going Crazy”, where you’re
delivery is sing-songy almost.
just learning how to play around more. It was just having things in my head
that I was kind of afraid to do. Sort of letting go of that fear, and being
like, “Oh no you can totally play around, it doesn’t have to be one thing, not
one sound.” It established that I knew what I was doing. You have to take it
out of the level that came before. I was really happy about learning how to
almost like a book: there were characters, plot development, and resolution. But
then a song like “Style Wars” from “This Week” has no linear narrative. There are
people and places that are alluded to, but these things may or may not be real.
What went on between those two albums? What led to that shift? Was it just
opening the toolbox you have open to you?
change in life and go through more experiences, my writing has to evolve. It
has to! If you haven’t done anything in those 2 or 3 years, and learned new
lessons, met new people, formed new relationships, and you’re writing the same
shit, the same way? I can’t do that.
same take every time?
new for me when I get in there, it just happened, so it depends. A lot of times
where I go in and I absolutely nail it first take, and sometimes when you do
that first take you go back and listen to it and you’re like, “Nope, don’t
change a fucking thing.” Even though there are some imperfections, there’s
magic in there. Usually, it’s a couple times, like 4 or 5. Just to kind of play
around with it and get the energy right. I think that’s what it is, trying to
figure out what I already have. I know the words are there, I know what it’s
supposed to sound like, I can hear it in my head. But I try to justify the
words, give them the life they deserve. You don’t want to let them down now
because they look so good on the page. Not much editing or revising is going on
though, generally really small stuff…figuring out vocally what I need to do.
You put Frankenstein together, and bring him to life!
once you have the beat, do you just add the rap to it? Or will you go back and
forth between the two – start with the beat, add rap, change beat to fit, then
change the rap, and so on? How much do you coordinate with the production side
It’s a continual back and forth, not changing the beat, but definitely adding
things…again, probably things that the general public doesn’t notice a lot.
When we’re picking drops, even if you’re just dropping off the snare, or the
hi-hat, or the kick, or everything for a second, it’s a huge part of constructing
a song. It’s the backdrop, it’s the reason you’re going to feel the way about
something, it’s the reason you’re going to take a breath and then come back in
when you’re listening. And adding instruments, live instruments, or whatever
sounds right…there are times when my manager comes back in the studio, and
they’re like, “Yeah, Jean put a glockenspiel on it”, laughs, and he’s like “Really?”
and then he’ll listen to it and he’s like, “This is why I hate you, because
you’re right! Now it feels better.” It’s just wanting to have the right ear. If
I’m going to add something, what is it going to be, where is it going to go,
and how do I arrange it so that I’m pulling the same emotion that these words
are driving at? So I’m really, really involved as far as that goes.
when that happens. You might have something that goes with a certain beat…I
don’t really write a lot of extra stuff, because I’m not just writing to write,
but there are definitely times when you’ve written for something else and it
might not ever get used or come out, and then you hear something, and you try
that over that beat, and you’re like, “Oh shit, it’s perfect! Absolutely
perfect! I” think that’s the only time that happens for me just because I don’t
have a surplus of rap.
just get the feeling that it was put together piecemeal. The first 4 bars all
fit together, they’re a unit, they all go together musically, thematically…
something else happens, and you’re like wait, what? That doesn’t go there!
creative process was they carry around a book, put together a lot of one or two
liners, until you get a full 16 bars.
definitely know rappers who do that. I sometimes call it “rappity rap” – you’re
just rhyming cat with hat, nursery-rhyme stuff. I don’t do that. No, for me,
everything is tailor made, with that really small exception that I can’t
remember the last time that happened. I thought of that today, I had a verse,
and I was like, “I’m sorry that song never came out”, but for me it’s
different, because then I can go and create a different beat for it. But you
know there are a lot of emcees who do that. I think there are some rappers who
are better at doing that seemlessly, because I don’t know 2 people who write
the same. I write differently than Kweli, and Pharoahe…I go in and if I’m in
the studio session, I’ll be like, “let me see how you write.” And there are
people who write in paragraph form, using ABCD phrasing. It’s really
interesting to see everyone’s writing process, and even if they don’t think
it’s a process, it’s fascinating.
create it, who has it, and so on. What is good flow to you?
particular person – everybody has their own flow. What doesn’t work for one
rapper might work for another. You have to get to know your voice as if it was
an instrument. Know what you can get away with – how you sound, almost what the
frequencies of your voice are. I hear beats that I really like, but pass on
them because I know my voice won’t fit. I hear other rappers say certain words
and raps that I really like, but I know that I couldn’t get away with it. It’s
like certain accents, like Southern, can use certain words that others can’t. I
think rappers should think more about what words they can use in a certain
order. For instance, if you change the rapper of a verse, but keep the rhythms
and words the same, the feel of the verse completely changes.
matter which one: recorder, piano, whatever. You need that different musical
perspective in your work. Always rap a loud too – some things that look good on
paper might not work in performance.
you see today that will continue into the future, like Rakim’s internal rhymes?
you’re hearing today kind of mirrors the early 90s. I’ve got no problem with
that, because it’s like the people now never heard that stuff back in the 90s,
so they can recreate it. But as far as specific things, I don’t see it right
now. I haven’t had a moment in a while where I’m like, “I’ve never heard that
before!” Andre 3000 is great at doing that.
you a line and you tell me how you’d continue it. How about the final line of your
song “Style Wars”: “Slit your neck open from your chest/ who’s next to duel?”
end of verse, I think I cut it off for the song. I would do the obvious thing
and continue that 3-syllable pattern, “next to duel”, which I was doing right
before that point on the song, with lines like “Catch you hiding in a darkened
VESTIBULE”…Maybe mix it up by using 2 words to fit that 3 syllable pattern,
just like vestibule was 1 word for 3 syllables. Eminem is great at doing stuff like
the women in your mama’s church…” (From “Oh No” with Pharoahe Monche, Mos Def,
and Nate Dogg”)
“gimme”, “women”, and “mama”…I’d probably continue the pattern of the m sounds.
I like when Mos sticks in one place for a while, which he doesn’t do too
often…his verse on “Thieves in the Night” [from Blackstar] is one of those
[from Organized Konfusion’s album “Stress: The Extinction Agenda.”]
but I can’t.
because that’d give it away too. I probably have a top 2 or 3.
someone to hear that had never heard your stuff before, which would it be?
think it’s difficult to say. Right now, it’d probably me, “You and Me and
Everyone We Know”, because I think there’s a lot of evolution of things on
there. But then there’s a downside to that, which is introducing that, with the
reaction of, “Oh, okay, you’re more of a laid back type of rapper”, and “I;m
like no, not really,,,go check me out on Assassins.” It’s difficult for me to
do that, but I do get that question. What happens is that that becomes the
perception, and then they go listen to other stuff.
album, I actually went back and listened to it the other day, because there’s a
lot of shit on there…I think of rap as a snapshot as what I’m learning at the
time. I’d pick “This Week”, for a full, complete thought.
I operate in terms of writing, just everything: dialogue during the day,
different ideas…it absolutely never stops and there’s no way I’d be able to get
all the projects done that come up in my head every hour.
finished the Christmas album, and I’m simultaneously working on this video,
writing, directing, editing, and then working on “Gotham Down”, the next album
out the 22nd, and I’m producing, and mixing, and writing, and then
my show, “The Life of Jeanie”…my mind keeps jumping around to so many things,
and I enjoy the business of it, but it was like 9 o clock this morning and my
eyes just hurt! I just wanted to go to sleep! So I kind of had to force myself
to sleep. It’s a lot, it’s an interesting time of year…but I think when there’s
this great creative overflow of stuff, you have to take advantage of it. You
know, the scene in old school where he does the debate team and he comes on,
and he just fucking blacks out for a second, and then he’s like “Oh my God, Oh
my God, Oh my God!” and then comes back, that’s kind of how it works for me.
having a lot of pets in the house, hamsters, mice, snakes, frog, fish….but not
right now because I travel. It’s something else to take care of, probably not a
good idea right now. I don’t have any pets because I like pets. They don’t